Sympathy for the Devil Review and a little Meta on Sam and Dean

[eachdraidhean]

I’m blaming the flu on my hyper-emotionalness (yes, i know it isn't a word, but it fits!) when watching anything right now. I swear, I would start sniffling at Location, Location, Location if Kirsty and Phil showed the buyer of the week the perfect cottage and they didn’t want it. *rolls eyes at self*

So, onto the matter at hand, and bear in mind that I'm completely unspoiled for the rest of the season, so musings and hopes and fears are based on this episode only, and whatever's gone before.

Sympathy for the Devil!

Loved the introductory montage and adore the new swirly bloodsplattery titles :)

I wondered how they were going to escape the convent, and beaming them onto a plane, and as it turns out, GOD beaming them onto a plane, was a novel way of doing it. Poor Dean! Being saved by his own phobia!! It was interesting that the cartoon that was playing on the plane was Yosammity Sam being told by the devil that he could use a man like him. Don’t like the foreshadowing possibilities of that at all!!

Poor chuck really was having a stressful time, what with Castiel exploding "like a water balloon of chunky soup" and finding one of his molars in his hair. Eeeww! The look on Dean's face when he found out that Sam's eyes turned black wasn't a good one, and Sam looked as if it were just one more thing to add to the list of ways he'd screwed up.

I have to wonder about Sam's powers. Ruby said he never needed the demon blood to increase their strength, so is he able to access them now? Has he not tried, apart from when he tried to kill Ruby back in Lucifer Rising? She said he'd shot his payload on the boss, but it doesn't make sense if that one act used them up. Not to me, anyway.

Zachariah is proving to be a damn good bad guy, and I liked Dean shooing him and his minions away using the same method Cas and Anna use. Then Sam was hesitant about telling Dean that he found out how to make the hex bags from Ruby :(

I'm going to leave all my comments about Sam until the end :)

Ah, the fan girl, Becky. I felt squirmy/embarrassed at her reading slash out loud!! And that was a very unique way for Chuck to get a message to the Winchesters. I cracked up at Dean not being how she expected him to be (What?!?! Is she out of her mind to be disappointed at Dean!!), and at the exchange with Sam.

“Becky, can you, erm, quit touching me?”

“No.”

But that’s enough. I get the joke and the gentle ribbing, but it did pull me out of the story, so I hope that’s the end of it.

Again, I'll get to Sam and Bobby at the end.

I was surprised that Dean didn’t catch on to Bobby being possessed earlier, as what he said to Sam was a complete contrast to what he said to Dean in LR. I thought Dean had caught on when he got up to find the address for the storage space, because the scene reminded me of when Grandpa Samuel is possessed back in “In the Beginning”, and I thought Dean had twigged, but it was the mention of his Dad getting him thinking about the lock up and then damage was done.

Bobby is creepy as a demon and awesome as he fights it, breaking free of the demon’s hold just long enough to kill it, but having to stab himself in the process! Wah!! It says a lot about how he feels about Dean, that he’d rather sacrifice himself than let the demon kill Dean.

I like the new Meg.

“Is that peanut butter?” *smirks*

And I’m assuming she’ll be hopping back into that particular meat suit again.

They left Bobby alone at the hospital!! I know it had to be done, but just for the record, it was Sam that wanted to stay.

I knew we'd see the lock up again someday, it was too awesome a place to to use it more than once :)

So Dean is Michael’s sword? Or as Dean puts it, he’s an angel condom. Zachariah has some strange definitions of Dean giving consent to being Michael’s vessel. Surely there’s some clause in there to it being freely given and not through blackmail or coercion? I loved Cas sweeping in to save the day, all alive and everything and scaring Zach with the possibility that God is back in the game. And for carving sigils onto the boy's ribs :)

Not much to say about Lucifer yet. Poor Nick is the perfect vessel for him. Despairing over the loss of his wife and child, it doesn't take much for the silver tongued angel to talk him into giving his consent. It'll be interesting to see what happens now!

And at the end, Dean's speech to Bobby took me in too. There's more of a strength in him now. He's not back to the old Dean, and he still looks weary, but there's a touch more of the old attitude about him. So I was thinking yeah, great! He's throwing himself into this, and Sam was obviously taken in too, by his suggestion they look for the colt (another plot possibility, perhaps?), so I was a little deflated when he admitted it was all for Bobby's benefit.

So, on to Sam ...

I felt so bad for Sam all the way through the episode. He needs to talk, even if it is only words and they can’t really make up for what he did, but Dean doesn’t want to hear it. You could see that need in him when Bobby arrived and my heart was breaking when he did spill everything to Bobby *gets tissues*. I expected Bobby to give him something to cling to, even a stern telling off, but in a fatherly way followed by a hug or at least an arm squeeze, especially after what Bobby said to Dean in Lucifer Rising. That Dean was a better man than his father, and that he shouldn’t give up on Sam.

So it came as a total shock when Bobby told Sam what he’d done was unforgivable, and that after it was done, he should lose his number. The devastation on Sam’s face was heart wrenching, and as he suggests he leave, he looks as low as I think we've seen him since the flashback to what happened after Dean died, almost without hope. And yes, there was sniffling on my part.

But despite everything, and the tensions between them, Dean and Sam worked together through the episode. It's like Dean is giving Sam something to keep his mind off things when he says they have to approach the Lucifer problem as any other hunt. They are together pulling weapons out of the trunk before heading into the lock up. Then Sam looks more stricken by the second as Zach tells Dean he's chosen to be Michael's vessel. He's just got Dean back, this time after pushing him away himself, and he's having to face the possibility of losing him AGAIN!

The sliver of hope you can see on Sam’s face as he listens to Dean talk about how they can take both sides on, and then that gorgeous smile when Bobby, the real Bobby, tells him that he’d never push him away, are soon lost, driven away by Dean's words in the most painful scene.

Finally, Dean lets Sam know exactly how he feels, and it’s like a punch in the gut. He can’t forgive Sam for choosing a demon over him, can’t trust him, an doesn’t think they can ever go back to how it was before. That last shot, pulling back to show them standing so far apart? Gah!!

Please, someone!! Stick Bobby in a wheelchair and get him into the parking lot stat to kick Dean’s ass!!

Thing is, I get it, I really do. Sam lied to him and pushed him away again and again. He told Dean he was weak, he had a good go at strangling him, and he did choose Ruby over Dean again and again.

But Sam didn’t know he was freeing Lucifer. He thought he was stopping Lilith from breaking the final seal, and in the process, getting revenge for taking Dean away from him. His methods were suspect, and he knew that himself, but at the end of the day, he didn’t know. He was played by both demons and angels, manipulated and used to break the final seal. So yes, he may have chosen a demon over Dean, but Dean wore his mistrust of Sam on his sleeve from the second he got back from Hell and did some pushing away of his own.

And Dean also tells Cas back in Lucifer Rising that he’d “take Sam as is”. I don't believe he's taking that back. In the lock up, when Zach breaks Sam's legs, Dean looks ready to murder the angel for hurting his little brother. After Cas arrives and makes Zach put them back together, Dean straightaway turns to check on Sam. The bond is still there. A tenuous one, subconscious maybe, and only apparent when instinct comes into play, but it's not gone.

So what I’m taking from the exchange in the car park is that Dean is hurting, and rightly so, and he needs to keep his distance from Sam for a while to avoid getting hurt again. But Sam needs something to hold onto.

This could end badly. Lucifer is out there, and may, as Ruby said, be very grateful for Sam’s part in his release. If Sam doesn’t get the forgiveness he needs from Dean, he may turn away from him again, with disastrous consequences.

But what I hope is that this season is all about the boys regaining the trust they once had in each other, because I think they’re going to need it. Dean may have been bullshitting Bobby with hisgung ho, lets take them all on speech, but really, that’s the only way it can go down. The boys need to trust each other to be ready to fight both sides, and I only hope they get to that point in time!


Start A Business

Comments

[ginzai.livejournal.com]

But Sam didn’t know he was freeing Lucifer. He thought he was stopping Lilith from breaking the final seal, and in the process, getting revenge for taking Dean away from him. His methods were suspect, and he knew that himself, but at the end of the day, he didn’t know. He was played by both demons and angels, manipulated and used to break the final seal. So yes, he may have chosen a demon over Dean, but Dean wore his mistrust of Sam on his sleeve from the second he got back from Hell and did some pushing away of his own.

I don't think Dean is unable to forgive Sam for kickstarting the Apocalypse. Dean (rightfully) puts the blame on the angels for that, not even blinking an eye when Zachariah does that snarky "Right, Sam?" wink. I don't even remember Dean bringing up the Apocalypse at all for a reason that he can't trust Sam - his reasons seemed entirely focused on the fact that Sam trusted Ruby, a demon, over his own brother.

At the risk of getting into a "who didn't trust who first" argument, I'm sorry, but I place the blame of that far more securely on Sam's shoulders than on Dean's. Ruby warned Sam in 4x01 that Dean needed to know what was going on and what Sam was up to because he'd eventually find out and would be pissed if it didn't come from Sam. Sam acknowledged that, but then continued to lie. Dean also did significantly more than Sam in terms of reaching out - he tried conjoling, threatening, begging, talking, asking, leaving, among other options - and Sam still refused to open up.

That lack of trust is, I think, the thing that most hurt Dean. This wasn't a single argument where Sam betrayed Dean, it was an entire year of incident after incident, lie upon lie. And absolutely, that's all coming back to haunt Sam now. Sam screwed up, massively. He seemed focused on what he did to free Lucifer, but that's not what's bothering Dean - it's the personal, fraternal betrayal instead that Dean's focusing on.

And the sad part is between Sam making that up or stopping Lucifer, it's going to be the harder task.

That said, will it happen? Sure, I've no doubts! But it's going to be a messy, long process. I know it's one that I'll look forward to watching though!

[germanjj.livejournal.com]

yes, yes and yes! :) I actually posted about this topic just a second ago, only in a coda.

I absolutely think that dean doesn't blame Sam for the apocalypse. He said something about 'we made a mess' and I think he blames himself as much as Sam when it comes to that topic. I think that all the hurt and the anger is only about Sam not trusting Dean and lying to him.

And I loove how protective Dean is over Sam! Not wanting to tell Bobby that it was his fault and coming back into the hospital room when Bobby called Sam's name!

For me, it's obvious that they are not really apart. There are huge things between them, but there's somehow no doubt about the love they have for each other and that's what's most important.

I think the boys will find a way back together and I can't wait for the ride Kripke will take us on to see that happen!

[ginzai.livejournal.com]

Dean being Dean, it wouldn't surprise me to learn that he blames himself more for releasing Lucifer. After all, if he hadn't broken the first seal, there would have been no chance for Sam to break the last, right?

Which isn't really fair, because between Dean and Sam, Sam knew more about what was going on, he knew the risks he was taking and still elected to take unilateral action (against the wishes of Dean, Bobby, Castiel, Chuck, Anna, and Pam, to name a few) whereas Dean didn't know what the seals were or what was being risked when he broke his, but this is DEAN here. He could judge himself unfairly for the Olympics.

Dean was protective of Sam, but not overly so, nor was he to the exclusion of aught else in life. That shows a marked change from where he was a few seasons back when Sam's safety came above all else. Dean didn't give into Zachariah's demands when Sam was dying. He put the fate of the world first. So I like this new level of protectiveness - it's a more sane response and it really shows how Dean has evolved.

There's still love between them, sure, but there are some honking ugly ass things as well. I like it though; Dean is refusing to let things be swept under the table. He's forcing them to be acknowledged. That's another giant step for him. I don't think Sam has hurt him as badly as he did in S4 since the Stanford argument, but that was ignored and brushed aside and repressed rather than dragged out into the light and dealt with. I think Dean is right; things will never be the same as they once were. However, I also think that the way they were before was really freaking unhealthy and that things are only going to get better.

[germanjj.livejournal.com]

it's a more sane response and it really shows how Dean has evolved.

I noticed that too!! He learned that he can't let other people die for his own "selfish" reasons (compared to the rest of humanity). I think Dean has gone through so much, he's stronger than ever, because he knows exactly who he is, what he wants and what he's capable of.

I also think that dean is not so much hiding his feelings, but more like .. doesn't see the need to express them. In all the seasons, when Dean felt like he needed to talk about his feelings, he did. So this time, he needed to tell Sam these things, say them out loud so Sam would understand him.

and yeah, I absolutely believe that they will get better. Kripke is not ending his show with the most important thing of it being broken (the relationship).

[sevenandthree.livejournal.com]

He seemed focused on what he did to free Lucifer, but that's not what's bothering Dean - it's the personal, fraternal betrayal instead that Dean's focusing on.

this.

i think that if it were just a question of sam freeing lucifer, dean could forgive and forget much easier - but for dean, it goes beyond that, it's the breaking of trust which he can't forgive so easily, which hurts because it's coming from sam the one person he loves the most.

[ginzai.livejournal.com]

Yup. You bring up a huge point; the betrayal hurts so much because it's Sam who did it. Dean said that Sam was the person he depended on the most and Sam let him down in so many ways that he couldn't even find words for them. The only person I can imagine who could have hurt Dean as much as Sam did in S4 would have been John.

[sevenandthree.livejournal.com]

The only person I can imagine who could have hurt Dean as much as Sam did in S4 would have been John.

even then, if that were the case, i think dean would still be able to forgive easier than he is now.

[ginzai.livejournal.com]

Well, to be fair, John has certain advantages that Sam didn't. Dean has epic vulnerabilities when it comes to his father that he once had in regards to Sam, but has now had four years to work out. With John, he's never had that chance and never will; the most he can get in regards to John is closure and an acceptance of the fact that he's never going to get what he wanted - and the ability to move past wanting it.

His relationship with Sam is considerably healthier, I think. And as a result, he's better able to hold a justifiable grudge.

[04-lover.livejournal.com]

I have to agree with you on this: "That lack of trust is, I think, the thing that most hurt Dean. ...He seemed focused on what he did to free Lucifer, but that's not what's bothering Dean - it's the personal, fraternal betrayal instead that Dean's focusing on." And it's obvious when Dean says, "you chose a demon over your own brother" and "you were the one that I depended on the most and you let me down in ways that I can’t even..." I'm a dean girl, and will always be one, so it makes me sad that he's so hurt! And for legitimate reasons. Sam totally dropped the ball on him. And since there's essentially nothing Sam can do to make it better, he's going to have to let time do it's work and wait for Dean's move because the ball is in his court.

And I while agree that a lot of blame is on Sam for their trust issues, I do think Dean plays a role in them. Sam had his reasons for not telling Dean what he was up to, legitimate or not. Dean's explicit prejudice against anything of that nature could have moved Sam not to tell him. Also, I feel like there's been a build up of, maybe not necessarily mistrust, but perhaps suspicion or judgment of Sam since John told Dean that if he couldn't save him, he'd have to kill him. And I believe Sam's been aware of those feelings, and so he would be wary to tell Dean in fear of the repercussions and also wouldn't want to further tarnish his image.

I think Sam reached out to Dean too (maybe not to the extent Dean did, but it was there). He asked Dean to share what happened to him in hell, to share the burden, but was turned away.

I am also looking forward to their reconciliation! I hope that once they do make up (and they will! I have faith in Kripke) they'll be even stronger from it than before :)

(I'm not trying to start an argument, just sharing my thoughts :).)

[ginzai.livejournal.com]

Icon love!

And I while agree that a lot of blame is on Sam for their trust issues, I do think Dean plays a role in them.

I totally agree! I'm not someone who's trying to argue that Dean was completely innocent in S4 and that Sam was a vile, despicable creature who cackled as he tried to come up with more reasons to make Dean's life miserable. *g* Dean played his own role as well.

Also, I feel like there's been a build up of, maybe not necessarily mistrust, but perhaps suspicion or judgment of Sam since John told Dean that if he couldn't save him, he'd have to kill him.

I don't agree with this though. I don't think there has been any mistrust of Sam himself. Dean didn't even start to call Sam's judgment into question until S3, when Sam was doing things like deciding to kill a virgin to save the rest of the crew (JiB) and had the brilliant idea of turning himself and Dean into shambling masses of decaying flesh that had to murder others in order to survive (3x15) in order to get Dean out of dying. Even then though, Dean trusted Sam as his brother and as a person. He was a bit alarmed and YED's words about whether Sam was 100% pure Sammy didn't help at all, but when push came to shove, Dean still trusted Sam all the way up until the end of S4.

Now, Sam's powers are a different issue entirely. Dean didn't have an issue with them until John's warning in 2x01 and he did grow more distrustful of them overtime, especially after Ruby started to really push Sam to start using them. Dean never trusted Ruby and if she was wanting Sam to use them, he (rightfully, as it turns out) knew them to be a bad idea.

I can definitely understand why Sam might not want to tell the truth about his embrace of them, but IMHO he crossed the line from sympathetic into "that's just wrong" when he lied about them and brought up that Dean not wanting him to use them was "practically your dying wish". Since that's the only major thing Dean did to distrust Sam, I can't give Sam much credit there either.

As for Hell, Dean lied about his memories for all of one episode, then admitted that he remembered but said that he couldn't talk about what happened for two more. And when Sam did find out, his opinion of Dean changed drastically. I don't think it's coincidence at all that the very first time we hear Sam talk about how Dean was "different" or about how Dean was too weak to handle the situation was in 4x12, the episode after Dean confessed to 'enjoying' torturing other souls in Hell. Before that point, we heard nothing of the sort. So I can't give Sam credit there either, because Dean lied for such a short period of time and it turns out that Dean had extremely good reason to withhold the truth - Sam's opinion of Dean took a fairly drastic nosedive shortly after he found out.

I do think that things will be even stronger than before. A lot of their previous relationship was built on Dean letting Sam get away with far more than he should without any real expectation of consequences. Dean didn't confront Sam about what Sam said in Asylum, nor about Sam leaving (in Faith, to Stanford to begin with, or in Hunted). He didn't say anything about Sam's sliding morality and ethics in S3, or about how extremely unfair it was to demand the promise to kill him in S2. Dean enabled a LOT of Sam's bad behavior, IMHO because of his one esteem issues. He's not going to do that anymore. By default, that means that ANY relationship they have from this point on is going to be stronger and more secure than what they had before.

(Arguments are fun! Or debating is, anyway. *g*)

[04-lover.livejournal.com]

Can I just say that this is making me happy reading your thoughts and seeing all of the references to past episodes? lol I feel like a dork but I was disappointed with last night's episode and talking about the boys is just great, even if I don't necessarily agree with everything :)

I see the distinction you're making between Sam and his powers, and I agree with it. I've always thought Dean had faith in his brother. But what John said to him plus the YED's taunts, I've felt those lingered with Dean. This is, of course, my interpretation and perspective. It would be very interesting to hear what the writer's think and feel about this kind of stuff.

IMHO he crossed the line from sympathetic into "that's just wrong" when he lied about them and brought up that Dean not wanting him to use them was "practically your dying wish" Oh yeah, oh yeah, I remember this. Yeah, I agree, that certainly set the precedent for Sam lying and misleading Dean and was out of line. Sam did do some pretty sketchy things, but Dean also let Sam down. Quoting blackjedii from this (http://blackjedii.livejournal.com/613676.html#cutid1), "it’s Dean who hit Sam in Metamorphosis and said 'do you know how far from human you’ve gone?!' It’s Dean who chose to dismiss Sam’s opinion on the case in Sex and Violence and insulted him by asking why he slept with monsters." So while Sam did some pretty despicable things, Dean could have acted differently. Although, I can't say that I would expect him to since he was reacting to Sam lying and misleading.

I don't think it's coincidence at all that the very first time we hear Sam talk about how Dean was "different" or about how Dean was too weak to handle the situation was in 4x12, the episode after Dean confessed to 'enjoying' torturing other souls in Hell. While I totally agree with this, I don't think it was necessarily because of Dean's confessions, but rather his reaction to them (e.g. the crying). And I don't think the writers did right by Sam by cutting off the scenes right after Dean's confessions. We never got to see Sam's full reaction or his thoughts on the matter. His development was cut off in that aspect.

Dean enabled a LOT of Sam's bad behavior, IMHO because of his one esteem issues. Oh yeah, totally agree with that. Dean and his issues, oh boy.

Hmmm I am going to have to think about this some more, especially when I am not sleep-deprived :)

[delanach.livejournal.com]

I know it's one that I'll look forward to watching though!

Me too!

Thanks for commenting :) This was my first meta and it's always interesting to hear differing viewpoints.

Well I guess I'm not capable of feeling sympathy for Sam yet...

[lillian78.livejournal.com]

he was a complete arrogant jerk throughout most of S4 and did pick Ruby over his brother. I think Dean made the point well that Sam was really the only one really and truly he counted on and he screwed that up big time. If a relative i.e. sibling trampled my trust in a big way I'm not sure I'd trust them again either. Regardless, this is Supernatural and about Sam & Dean against the world (or the devil) so we know it'll come out right somehow in the end. I'm just saying Sam deserves the pain and angst he's going through now. Dean had to suffer too when he found out he started the countdown.

Re: Well I guess I'm not capable of feeling sympathy for Sam yet...

[charmedstrange1.livejournal.com]

Let me start by saying I love Dean! Really! But, I think he wasn't blameless thru S4. Who threw it in Sam's face with "What is it with you and banging monsters?", when HE was the one who was all wrapped up in the siren? Not to mention the fact he was throwing Madison (heart-wrenching event) back in Sam's face in a moment of spite. Sam was wrong, but Dean wasn't totally right.

I'm just saying Sam deserves the pain and angst he's going through now. Dean had to suffer too when he found out he started the countdown.

Sam *is* suffering, from his own guilt, just like Dean did. But Sam didn't turn his back on Dean for it, which is what Dean's doing now.

Re: Well I guess I'm not capable of feeling sympathy for Sam yet...

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, but Dean didn't screw the siren, he was hanging out with him like a bro. Dean's never fucked a supernatural being (that we know of). He'd kill it first. Just sayin'. Sam willingly fucked a demon. Sorry, not the same thing.

Re: Well I guess I'm not capable of feeling sympathy for Sam yet...

[charmedstrange1.livejournal.com]

Yes! I totally agree, it's not the same thing-- I wasn't saying Dean was screwing around with the siren, or equating that-- I was using that as an example.

Dean said that to Sam because Sam hooked up with the doctor- who Dean believed was the siren, and believed that Sam was under its spell- when it was Dean who was under its spell. In other words, Dean threw that in his face because he was accusing Sam of being 'whammied' by the siren, when it was Dean who was guilty of that.

That's the point I was making, not that Dean would stoop so low as to fuck a supernatural being. I was trying to point out, apparently not so successfully, that Dean isn't perfect. Apparently, in some circles he is.

Re: Well I guess I'm not capable of feeling sympathy for Sam yet...

[andromakhe001.livejournal.com]

But the point isn't, and really wasn't, that Dr Cara wasn't the siren, the point is that Cara very well COULD have been the siren. The sirens MO up to that point was posing as an attractive woman and using sex as a way to get the men to do what she wanted. Sam should never have slept with any woman knowing that.

It was just plain downright unprofessional for Sam to turn off his phone(meaning Dean could not reach him if he needed help) and screw Dr Cara right in the middle of a case, after he'd patted Dean on the head and sent DEAN off with what turned out to be the real siren.

Sam's growing arrogance precipitated what happened there. He thought he was giving Dean "busy work" while he was doing all the important stuff on the case. It was the fact that Sam was NOT behaving like a team player that ended up helping cause this. And yes Dean could have not gotten angry about it but well, to put in a childish way, Sam started it.

As well Dean wasn't whammied by the Siren when he said it to Sam, he actually was quite rightfully angry about it. He happened to be wrong but what Sam did was very stupid. He was just LUCKY that Cara was NOT the Siren because she totally fit the MO and it wasn't skill that kept Sam out of trouble there, it was luck.

Re: Well I guess I'm not capable of feeling sympathy for Sam yet...

[charmedstrange1.livejournal.com]

And yes Dean could have not gotten angry about it but well, to put in a childish way, Sam started it.

Heh heh! That's one way to look at it! :)

For me, it was just such a cutting thing to say, because the *first* thing I thought of was Madison (NOT Ruby, even tho I'm assuming that's what Dean meant more)-- and of the tears streaming down BOTH their faces when Sam killed her.

And again, I'm amazed at the different takes on things that we all get; because these--

..after he'd patted Dean on the head and sent DEAN off with what turned out to be the real siren.

He thought he was giving Dean "busy work" while he was doing all the important stuff on the case.

I TOTALLY did not get that from that episode. I've never gotten the feeling Dean is following orders from Sam. *shrugs* Weird. o.0

Re: Well I guess I'm not capable of feeling sympathy for Sam yet...

[delanach.livejournal.com]

Personally, I don't think either of them deserve to suffer for what happened last season.

They were both played and manipulated, both made bad choices without having all the facts, especially Sam. I'm not saying he's blameless, but knowing what we know about him, he's more than likely drowning in his own guilt right now, you can see it on his face. He's already suffering, knowing what he did, and knowing that things aren't right between them, but what Dean said to him had a ring of finality about it in direct contrast to the things he was saying at the end of the last season.

"You're my brother, and that doesn't change." To Castiel, and "I'll even take Sam as is."

And as I said, he's got every right to be hurting and pissed. He obviously needed to lash out at Sam, and he did, but it was the complete lack of hope he left Sam with that stung.

I know they will work it out, eventually :)

[etoile444.livejournal.com]

I think the biggest thing we need to keep in mind is that it's only been days since Sam beat the crap out of Dean and choked him, days since he chose Ruby over Dean and walked out on him. It's going to take time to heal things, but Dean has changed. He is independent now, able to let go of his brother. Think about the fact that Zach was killing Sam and Dean said: "then kill us..."

[delanach.livejournal.com]

It will take time and it'll be interesting to see how that plays out in future episodes. You're right, it has been mere days (it just seems like a lifetime, having to wait so long for the new season to start!), and Dean does seem stronger than he's been for a while, which is a good thing for everyone.

[charmedstrange1.livejournal.com]

Thing is, I get it, I really do. Sam lied to him and pushed him away again and again. He told Dean he was weak, he had a good go at strangling him, and he did choose Ruby over Dean again and again.

But Sam didn’t know he was freeing Lucifer. He thought he was stopping Lilith from breaking the final seal, and in the process, getting revenge for taking Dean away from him. His methods were suspect, and he knew that himself, but at the end of the day, he didn’t know. He was played by both demons and angels, manipulated and used to break the final seal. So yes, he may have chosen a demon over Dean, but Dean wore his mistrust of Sam on his sleeve from the second he got back from Hell and did some pushing away of his own.

That's exactly how I feel. For most of this whole series, I've been firmly in the center, where I could see the perspective of both brothers. I could see when Dean screwed up, and when he had a point- and I could see the same thing for Sam.

But this time.

I totally disagree that Sam deserves to be treated like this. What happened to "I still owe you a serious beat-down, but you're my brother and that doesn't change"???

I agree Dean should be pissed. They've spent most of the whole series pissed at each other for one or another reason. But "We will NEVER be what we were before"?? "I don't trust you"?? He didn't say 'I don't feel like I can trust you yet', or 'this is gonna take some time and you're not my favorite person right now'. He basically said go fuck yourself Sam, I don't give a shit any more. At least, that's what I heard.

I've always loved Dean. I still do, but right now I'm firmly on Sam's side.

Sam did the wrong thing. But based on all the evidence of how things turned out (they were being screwed over and manipulated BY BOTH SIDES), he could just as easily have been *right*.

[delanach.livejournal.com]

I've always loved Dean. I still do, but right now I'm firmly on Sam's side.

Me too! I felt so bad for Dean a lot of last season, with Sam hurting him mentally, and then physically, openly lying to him and ditching him for Ruby. Even then I could see that if Dean hadn't been so open in his complete mistrust of Sam, if he had given Sam the chance to explain about his powers rather than just dismissing them and demanding he stop dead, maybe things could have turned out differently. Although the demon blood drinking was always gonna be a hard sell :)

Dean's timing of his "we will never be the same" speech sucked, coming right after Bobby had given Sam a little hope that he wasn't being disowned (Bobby does a grand job of the father figure in the boy's lives). And I have to wonder if Dean isn't punishing Sam for hurting him. Yes, he could have said that it'll take time before they can get back to where they were, even if he doesn't feel that way at the moment. He bullshitted Bobby to make him feel better, but can't do the same for Sam?

What happened to "I still owe you a serious beat-down, but you're my brother and that doesn't change"???

I know! It has only been a couple of days, and I can't see Dean doing a complete about turn on what he said in such a short space of time.

I've always been a fan of both boys, never favoured one over the other, although I've been able to see when one of them is more in the right or wrong than the other. Dean's words will have cut deep, and maybe that was his intention, to make Sam feel some of the pain he's gone through, but I have a hard time believing that Dean truly meant what he said. It smacks of gut reaction and a need to lash out.

I'm sure they'll work things out in their own dysfunctional way, but I think it'll be a bumpy right for them and us along the way.

These guys should sign up for family therapy!

[andromakhe001.livejournal.com]

I don't think "lashing out" has anything to do with it. Dean was very much the opposite of lashing out in my opinion. Dean struggled the whole episode to try and put his feelings back in the box, to NOT let the actions of the past year affect his relationship with Sam. He was struggling with it the whole episode. It has nothing to do with punishing Sam. Dean is not angry as he's talking, he is sad, he is disappointed, he is in mourning for the loss his trust in his brother.

In point of fact I think Dean talked to Sam now because it was the perfect timing - the case was over. Dean was trying to focus on the "job" the whole time. They are "off the clock" as they leave the hospital. The fact that Bobby gave Sam a free pass does not mean that somehow Dean shouldn't have told Sam his own feelings.

In fact that's been a problem of Dean's whole life - it never being "the right time" for HIS feelings. It's always "there are bigger fish to fry" and that goes back to his childhood when John had him convinced that if he ever let his guard down something terrible would happen. There is always someone else who is supposed to take precedence--it's been Sam and John and the work. And he's finally, for the first time in his life, stopped and decided that HIS feelings about this DO matter.

I mean seriously when would have been "good timing" for this? There is never a good time for this.

[andromakhe001.livejournal.com]

Dean didn't say he hated Sam. And I have no idea what dialogue you were listening to because that sure isn't what I heard.

Dean has NO idea if he can ever trust Sam again. When someone does what Sam did, sometimes there is NO regaining that trust. It wasn't a single bad decision made in a moment of madness, Sam made choice after choice after choice, lie after lie.

It's not up to Dean to "be nice" to Sam and give him hope in my opinion, not now, not at this point. It's up to Sam to do the heavy lifting in the relationship this time. Sam needs to start EARNING back that trust before Dean can decide whether or not he feels will be able to trust him again.

Dean was being honest, he loves Sam. I thought that was blatantly obvious but he cannot trust him. That's why he was so sad when he was speaking. He wasn't angry, he was sad.

I think it's unrealistic and unfair to expect that of Dean.

I see no difference between what Dean in Lucifer Rising and here. Dean didn't say Sam wasn't his brother. And I think it was very clear that Dean still loves Sam and that is precisely why it hurts him so much that he cannot trust Sam.

But facts are facts - there are some things that even familial relationships cannot come back from. And Dean's not a mind reader. Dean has a right to be that hurt by this. What Sam did was no small little betrayal.

In any case, Dean is right - they will never bee what they were before. That could be a good thing in the end, it might be better but Dean has no real reason to believe that right now.

You know what, even if Sam had been right, I think Dean would have felt much the same way - because even Sam being right doesn't excuse the lies and sneaking around and calling Dean weak and accusing him of cowardice.

Sam would have been right but it would still have destroyed his relationship with Dean.

[charmedstrange1.livejournal.com]

It's so cool to be able to examine all different perspectives on this! - I got a completely different emotional vibe from that whole scene than you did. I didn't feel Dean being angry *or* sad, just cold-- which I guess might be considered one step past either of those things, when you're fed up like Dean is now.

I'd love to know- how would you like to see this play out for them, over the season?

[lovetheguys.livejournal.com]

I agree with you, because I fully believe that only the brothers' love for each other is going to eventually kill Lucifer. But they have to be totally reunited, trusting each other as they used to, for this to happen, and I suspect it will take the entire season for them to make their way back!

Love, Robin
Editor, SUPERNATURAL
Moogi.com
Episode 5.1 up now
Support my work as I do yours!

[delanach.livejournal.com]

I'm glad you agree :) Yep, I think we're in for a bumpy ride again this season!

[tracys-dream.livejournal.com]

Nice review.
I'm looking forwrd to seeing the guys learning to trust each other again this season.

[delanach.livejournal.com]

Thank you! Yes, I'm looking forward to that too :)

[erivar.livejournal.com]

I like your take on the season so far. I felt all the heartbreak and hurt the brothers were feeling. I hurt for Dean's feelings because i totally understand the whole wanting to forgive and forget but just can't because you can't help the way you feel. I can't count how many times I've been in that sort of place.
It made it even worse for Sam who as we all know, is king of guilt.

[delanach.livejournal.com]

I like your take on the season so far.

Thank you!

Yes, both boys are hurting, and it's gonna be tough on both of them getting past their issues and back to a place of trust. *pets them*